The Dream Cancel LB2 wiki maintainers decided to standardize how startup is counted. My startup values do not include the first active frame. I’ll update my data to match when I get a chance.
Sources
All frame and damage data below is data I’ve collected
If not otherwise specified, data was taken using:
FBNeo v0.2.97.44-54 (alpha version)
fbneo-training-mode.lua
MVS Asia/Europe ver. 6 BIOS
ROM set 0.2.97.44 lastbld2.zip (sha256sum 7a227510f39d1202486e1d225ae6fab52d361f5416d83f6221892c3fdf52b6e5)
ROM set 0.2.97.44 neogeo.zip (sha256sum 7ad38b3c1815c61c54b81557c46c962bb3eb9e101ad5e564a71d476e6deabde5)
Stages known to not lag (Blue Sky, Batlefield, Elephant?, Forest, Yuki-Machi)
Versus mode, not the built-in training mode
Fastest Abare
Character and Attack
Startup
Juzoh 2C
3
Kagami 2C
3
Okina 4A/5A/2A
3
Zantetsu 2C
3
Akari 2A/4B
4
Amano 4A/2A
4
Hibiki 2A/5B*
4
Kojiroh 4A/2C
4
Kouryu 5A
4
Lee 4A/2A/2C
4
Moriya 4A/421A/B/C
4
Mukuro 4A
4
Setsuna 2A/2C
4
Washizuka 4A/2A
4
Yuki 4A/5A
4
Kaede 4A/5A/2A
5
O. Kaede 4A/5A/2A
5
Shigen 4A/5A/2A/2C
6
*Hibiki 5B hits in front on the 11th frame
Deflect is a universal reversal
Lee’s flash kick has startup invulnerability when inputted as [2]B8, making it a true reversal
Lee has a one frame startup side step stance that is invulnerable frame 2 after the input
Hibiki has a one frame startup side step stance that gives her upper body invulnerability frame 2 after the input
Amano, Juzoh, both Kaedes, Mukuro, Shigen, Kagami, Yuki, and Zantetsu have instant command grabs with varying ranges. Command grabs and throws lose to meaties due to the active frame being a strike vulnerable grab box checking frame.
Zantetsu command grab SDM is nearly instant with 1 frame of startup before the grab box checking frame
Hibiki’s command grab SDM has more startup at 7 frames before the grab box checking frame
Backdash Startup
Character
Startup
Lee
0
Kouryu
1
Mukuro
1
Okina
2
Akari
2
Amano
2
Kagami
2
Kojiroh
2
Setsuna
2
Washizuka
2
Yuki
2
Hibiki
3
Juzoh
3
Kaede
3
Moriya
3
O. Kaede
3
Zantetsu
3
Shigen
4
Ungrabbable the frame after startup
Defense Modifiers
Recorded combo damage by character
There are 3 main categories of damage resistance and a 4th SNK boss damage resistance category for Kouryu
Resistance to damage is by individual attacks. E.g. A single Akari 5B does 28 damage to Zantetsu, 26 to Washizuka, and 24 to Shigen
Proration appears to be based on the combo count and not previous damage done.
Kouryu was tested in AES only
AES has a quirk where combo damage is higher until eventually settling to the same damage as occurs in MVS Asia 6. Test through until combos do the same damage every time.
Akari was tested in AES and MVS Asia v6. Damage was the same for all combos in both.
Speed and Power Hagure have the same defense as Speed and Power Akari, regardless of who it transforms in to. EK Hagure has the same defense as EX Akari.
Combo A (Akari) 2A 4B 6C 4B 4B 28C(1) > 2146[AB]
Combo B (Akari) jB 5B 2146AB
Combo C (Akari) jB 2B(1) > 28C(4) > 28B(4)
Combo D (Akari) jB 5B 63214A (Akari outside bell)
Combe E (Akari) jB 5A 632146B
Power Defense
Character (Power)
Combo A
Combo B
Combo C
Combo D
Combo E
Akari
180
144
98
87
144
Hagure
180
144
98
87
144
Hibik
180
144
98
87
144
Kojiroh
180
144
98
87
144
Lee
180
144
98
87
144
Mukuro
180
144
98
87
144
Okina
180
144
98
87
144
Yuki
180
144
98
87
144
Zantetsu
180
144
98
87
144
Amano
174
132
93
82
136
Kaede
174
132
93
82
136
Kagami
174
132
93
82
136
Moriya
174
132
93
82
136
O. Kaede
174
132
93
82
136
Setsuna
174
132
93
82
136
Washizuka
174
132
93
82
136
Juzoh
162
123
81
71
121
Shigen
162
123
81
71
121
Kouryu
152
117
78
68
90
Speed Defense
Character (Speed)
Combo A
Combo B
Combo C
Combo D
Combo E
Akari
180
144
98
87
144
Hagure
180
144
98
87
144
Moriya
174
132
93
82
136
Shigen
162
123
81
71
121
Kouryu
152
117
78
68
90
EX Defense
Character (EX)
Combo A
Combo B
Combo C
Combo D
Combo E
Akari
180
180
126
110
180
Hagure
180
180
126
110
180
Moriya
180
169
113
100
170
Shigen
180
163
111
97
166
Kouryu
180
157
108
94
119
Stun Resistance
I thought EX characters were getting stunned more often than power so I did some testing. Maybe it makes sense to route combos for stun on EX opponents with certain characters.
Character
Power 6C,4BxN
Speed 6C,4BxN
EX 6C,4BxN
Akari
10
9
8
Hagure
10
9
8
Juzoh
11
10
9
Moriya
10
9
8
Shigen
11
10
9
Kouryu
11
10
9
Stun resets to 0 when stunned. Not relevant without handicap health values but an example would be doing 6C and then 4B nine times on a stunned Speed Akari will stun her again.
I tried to determine if Hagure inherited stun modifiers from something other than the mode with Juzoh and Shigen but couldn’t find suitable attacks.
Link Windows
The number of frames you have to input a link
Akari Link Windows
Link
Window (Power/Speed)
4A 4A
1
4A 5A
1
4A 4B
4
4A 2A
4
5A 4B
3
5A 2A
3
4B 4A
5
4B 5A
5
4B 4B
3
4B 5B
1
4B 6C
2
4B 2A
8
4B 2B
4
4B 2C
4
4B 3C
6
2A 4B
2
2A 2A
6/2
2C 4A
2
2C 4AC
3
2C 5A
3
2C 4B
6
2C 2B
2
2C 2C
2
Amano Link Windows
Link
Window
4A 4A
5
4A 2A
4
2A 2A
4
2C 2A
3
Juzoh Link Window
Link
Window
2C 2C
3
Kagami Link Windows
Link
Window
6B 2C
1
2C 2C
3
2C 4AC
1
Kaede (Old and Awakened) Link Windows
Link
Window
4A 4A
4
4A 5A
4
4A 6C
1
Kojiroh Link Windows
Link
Window
4A 4A
2
4A 2A
1
5A 4A
2
5A 2A
1
2C 4AC
1
2C 2C
1
Kouryu Link Windows
Link
Window
4A 5A
3
5A 5A
4
5A 4A
4
Lee Link Windows
Link
Window
4A 4A
9
4A 2C
9
4A 5A
8
4A 6C
5
2C 4AC
2
2C 4A
1
2C 5A
1
2C 5B
2
2C 2A
2
2C 2C*
13
AB > C 5B
1
AB > C 2C**
4
AB > D 2C
4
* 2C is self-cancelling, even in Power
** AB>C 2C links 44-47 frames after the C follow-up. If you input C on the 43rd frame, you do the 2C follow-up.
Hibiki Link Windows
Link
Window
4A 4A
5
4A 5A
5
4A 2C
4
2C 2A
3
2C 4AC
2
2C 4A
1
Moriya Link Windows
Link
Window
4A 4A
2
2C 4AC
2
2C 4A
1
Mukuro Link Windows
Link
Window
4A 4A
9
4A 5A
4
4A 5B
1
4A 5C
9
4A 6C
6
4A 2A
7
4A 2C
7
5C 4A
2
2C 4AC
1
2C 5C
1
Okina Link Windows
Link
Window
4A 4A
2
4A 5A
2
2A 2A*
8
* 2A 2A is self-cancelling, even in power
Shigen Link Windows
Link
Window
4A 4A
1
4A 5A
1
4A 2A
1
Washizuka Link Windows
Link
Window
4A 4A
1
5A 4A
3
5A 2C
1
2C 4AC
3
2C 4A
2
2C 2A
3
2C 2C
1
214B 4A
3
Yuki Link Windows
Link
Window
4A 4A
1
5A 4A
1
2C 5A
1
2C 4AC
1
Zantetsu Link Windows
Link
Window
5A 2C
1
5A>A 4A
2
5A>A 5A
2
5A>A 2C
3
2A2A 5A
2
2A2A 5C
3
2C 4AC
3
2C 4A
2
2C 5A
3
2C 5C
3
2C 2C
4
2C 6C
1
2C 2A
1
Notes
Startup is counted as the number of frames before a move becomes active. See notes below for what types of moves start when.
Normals, specials, and desperation moves all require one frame of input. Command normals (ground and air) require two frames of input
Desperation and special move startup begins the frame after the button input
Throw checks if the opponent is throwable the frame after it is inputted. CD must be inputted a minimum of 1 frame. Not a reversal because the checking frame is strike vulnerable.
Movement inputs 4 and 6 start the same frame they are inputted.
Normals startup begins the frame after input. (I could have sworn that sometimes startup begins the frame of input. Investigate more.)
Crouching normals and commmand crouching normals require either two frames of button and direction input. Startup begins on the second frame.
Alternatively, a crouching normal and command crouching normal can be inputted as the button press and direction for the button press frame and the following frame. Startup begins on that following frame.
Command normals require two frames of button input and the last in the command direction. They begin on the second frame of input.
Air command normals require two frames of button and direction input. They begin on the second frame of input.
Air normals startup begins the frame after the input
Prejump is universally 3 frames and starts the frame of the input (Lua training mode sometimes increases the second players prejump to 4 frames, including the animation, until a reset. Could use more investigation.)
Inputting a standing normal while crouching has the same startup but replaces the first frame of the startup animation with a crouching animation
Inputting a crouching normal while standing has the same startup but replaces the first frame of the startup animation with a standing animation
Inputting a jumping normal the first frame in the air replaces the first frame of the jumping animation with the prejump animation but you are in the air and no longer able to be grabbed
The motion input buffer holds a 2146 for up to 37 frames (that is, a frame perfect 2146 will be held for 33 frames and an AB in that window, motion inputs included, will activate the super), a 236 for 18 frames, a 623 and 63214 for 14 frames. Others to be tested.
67 frames of mashable stagger from crouch blocking speed BC can be cut down to about 16 frames by stick back and forth and mashing buttons or about 30 frames with just the stick (ABCDx3 quickly does the trick)
A hit increases recovery time and is not consistent across attacks, cannot be calculated by frame data
Hitstun recorded does not include the frame the hit occurred
Frame advantage and recovery on hit does not include the additional advantage of hitting on late active frames
(Dis)advantage on block recorded as frame perfect switch guard because it is your worst case scenario
The recovery of a move varies by hit, block, and whiff so the timing of the fastest possible link often differ from the timing of the fastest possible blockstring and walling attempt. E.g. Akari 2A 2A has between 20 and 25 frames to link, a gap of 22 frames for the fastest blockstring, and a gap of 18 frames for the fastest wall. If there’s a pattern that can be calculated from frame data, then I have not found it yet.
Wakeup time varies pretty widely (30-70ish frames) by both character and by knockdown move
Wakeup animations can be the same but be played at different speeds
Some power normals do more damage than EX and Speed versions
Generally, the Power version of a special does more damage than the speed version and the EX version does damage somewhere in between those
Throws do not win trades with strikes but they often come out first
If player one and player two have a grab come out on the same frame, player one wins. The same rule applies to command grab-regular throw trades and regular throw-command grab trades.
3BCD OTG startup time doesn’t seem to be any different from 3B OTG (tested with Washi)
From the flash of a successful deflect, the deflected player will recover in 50 frames while the other will recover in 27 frames. Mashing buttons and directions does not reduce the recovery.
After a failed air deflect, there are 10 frames of recovery after landing. Normally you can block grounded normals the frame you land.
TODO
Specific circumstance where 3BCD OTG is faster? Lets you start earlier or cancel something? Brief testing showed them to be the same but maybe I’m missing something.
Find stun values in memory
Script both players inputs to cover cases replays don’t or don’t easily cover
Determine if there is recovery on backdash
Find if Hagure inherits stun resistance from mode
Motion input buffer widths for different motions
Hitboxes in training mode, then:
Determine when and why Hibiki DM sometimes misses a standing Akari